Are coding boot camps predatory

[I’m assuming you know I run Perpetual Education/this site you’re on] [and that you know I’m writing this in the context of the reddit post and specifically the /codingbootcamp sub reddit]

Here’s my take:

First off, I’ll do a rare top-level disclosure that I run a small boot camp type design school.

I had no intention of being involved in this “boot camp” world. I had a few friends go through boot camps and have success. I saw people paying 30k for schools that were very surface level, and I thought I could do a lot better for a lot less money. I was already teaching a lot of people one-on-one and it didn’t seem very efficient at all. I also wanted to see if my experiment in teaching UX and UI and dev all together would work. I started writing the curriculum around 4 years ago and that’s when I started learning about coding boot camps and the interesting (and what I would consider highly predatory) businesses in the larger ecosystem.

But here’s a question to start

Can we generalize every boot camp style school into one group that all behaves the same way?

I don’t think so.

And there are more players involved than just the schools.

This is how I’d break it down (and this is just my interpretation, and the timeline is only to illustrate how things evolve)

At some point, there were the early ‘boot camps’ in San Francisco. I wasn’t there, but some people I know were. Ruby on Rails was pretty hot. Many of the big companies were using it, and there was a lot of demand. It was in person so you were in the thick of it. It was exciting. You were meeting new people and getting into an exciting new career. You might be in the boot camp and meet some friends and literally go upstairs and get a job right away. You could learn enough to get in there and be a productive part of the team. Was there room for error? A few unhappy people? Yes. But for the most part, it was a winning deal. People went from making 40k at their job at the restaurant or the library – to making 80k. And they could bounce around from there and make even more fairly quickly. I’m going to just refer to these as the original boot camps. The model worked. But it worked in a bigger arena. The market was there / the school was there – the students were there. It was a reasonable-sized operation. They needed people trained. Was the education the best it could ever be? Who knows. I’m sure the curriculum designers at the time cared. But people weren’t seeing this as a full-on alternative to a Computer Science degree. It was a ‘coding boot camp.’ The world needed “coders.” I worked at a start-up in 2000 as an intern, so – I know the difference between “coders” and software engineers. It says it right in the name. You aren’t going to be a software engineer – or have a degree. So, at this point, could you say it was predatory? I highly doubt it. I bet having untrainable people was more time and effort than it would be worth. I think they were legit. But capitalism tends to bend things. And there’s no way it could work for everyone. Most people aren’t web developers.

But this business model was enticing. The world needed more coders. And more companies/schools (however you want to think about them) started popping up. And the fact is that not everyone can be the best. Most people are just mediocre. A percentage of them just aren’t that great at their jobs. So – it’s only basic math that some of these schools weren’t going to be that great. And maybe they’d have great marketing teams / and great growth teams – but maybe their instructors weren’t trained. Or maybe they rushed through the curriculum outlines and didn’t try them out. Maybe they tried to stuff too many things in that 3-month time period. Maybe they spent too much money on marketing and needed to recoup quickly. Who knows. Was there an evil person sitting at a chair petting an exotic cat – just laughing about all the money they made? I don’t think so. I’m sure there were a few people in the hierarchy who only viewed it through the lens of profit. I think most of the people at these schools were probably trying their best. Were they enrolling people who probably weren’t going to get the value? Were they selling a less-than-stellar product? In some cases. But I’d also bet that they didn’t know the difference. Once you work at a big company, you start to see how most of the dumb stuff that happens isn’t really about one bad guy. It’s the collective little choices everyone makes. Was the dumb CEO evil? Or was he just 25 and was always told he was a genius and just overshot everything. Who knows. Any worse than most people? But more and more stuff started going wrong.

Some of the schools went bonkers with growth. They had schools popping up in every city. Sometimes 3, in the same city. From what I could tell (I was tutoring people a lot at the time and saw a lot of what they were learning) the materials were getting worse – or they’d just keep adding and offering things like “3 full stacks” and way more than anyone could actually learn. Their marketing was going to a much wider audience, and they weren’t just promising to give you a comprehensive intro to programming (with the hopes that you’d be job ready) – they were starting to sell the dream of a high salary and a better life. They were starting to make more promises to more people (people who probably weren’t a good fit). Was this starting to feel a little predatory? It was to me. But what about the marketing team? Weren’t they just doing their job? Wasn’t the sales team just doing their job? At this time, I applied to be a teacher at a few schools. I failed the test at one of them. They said I could apply again in 3 weeks. The other one didn’t give me a test and asked when I could start. I had been a working developer for many years already, but that didn’t feel right (I didn’t take the job btw). It started to feel like a mad rush. But it was still managing to work for a lot of people. And the people who didn’t transition their careers didn’t seem too mad. Just exploring “tech” was interesting, and they tended to blame themselves. The students also have to bust their asses. There are a lot of factors. But already, it was starting to seem like there were a lot of new boot camp developers – and (at least in my experience) this would generally mean that they had the same 3 projects and the same unfortunate portfolio web page and that they weren’t really experienced enough to count on. Some of them were knocking out top-selling iOS apps or starting their own company – and hitting the ground running – but a lot of people were just going through the motions and it was starting to show. It wasn’t a deal-breaker / but some of the boot camp magic from before was wearing off. And all the web design agencies had been adopting Rails and Angular and some of the mystique was wearing away for other reasons with just how the tools we use change. And keep in mind – that there was still a range of schools. There were some great schools that were doing what they did well. And there were some schools who probably thought they were doing what they did well – but just had a much lower bar. And sometimes you just get a great teacher and a great fit with the other students / and other times you get duds. Were they predatory? It’s hard to say. If they were taking on students who they knew for sure wouldn’t be successful in their goal – then that’s taking advantage of people. But at the same time, we always run that risk in any school. Would turning people away be the right thing to do? That’s a gatekeeping problem of its own. So, I think that comes down to how you view it. Is it a training school where you’re certified and hirable? Or is it a school that accelerates your understanding of the field? Because I’ve met people who did a boot camp, didn’t get a job – but then over the years thought fondly of it and eventually chose their current path based on that experience. So, there are those people too. Making sure people have access to education options is important – but the options have to be good / even if they have a different outcome. If you can learn enough to get a feel for the bigger team and end up in say – a project manager roll, that can still be a win that’s hard to measure. I’m just bringing up some gray area. I think if the student is sold on a training program that promises they’ll be hirable and then they aren’t / that it’s different than taking an online or college course. It’s about how it’s sold to you. I went to school for painting. I thought that somewhere in there, I’d figure out what I wanted to do. But if I went for my HVAC certification and I couldn’t get hired doing that job after, I’d want my money back. Anyway –

Let’s say that somewhere around here the schools started offering online version of the courses. That’s a much different offering. You aren’t standing with people next to you. You aren’t encouraged and held accountable in that in-person way – where you can’t choose to just sit in the corner and disengage or play video games. The school could pay recent graduates to run the course from their bedroom. They could scale without offices. And some of the schools did a good job. And really / it’s pretty cool that you could have the opportunity (for a bit less money) (from your town that wasn’t SF). So, for some people, this was a life-changing option. Those people are too busy living their lives to come to this sub and tell you about it / but they were real. And there were some really great teachers and some really great students / and some of them are in this sub – and it might not have been perfect / but they did it. But there were a lot of people who got swept up in the idea that “tech” would change their lives and they just needed a certificate from a boot camp. Some people just wanted to believe that this was a job anyone could be trained for and that it paid well no matter who you were or if you liked it. I couldn’t personally relate to that idea / but I’d talk to people all the time who were looking at boot camps. They had no real conscious understanding of how websites worked or computer programs or how they’d be involved (and I remember also having a big blank spot there before I started) – but I’d never really been the person who could plan at a career level. I just tried things out and learned it all on my own. When I went to school for art / it was the opposite. They basically told us we’d be lucky to ever get a job. So, anyway – the range of school quality and goals got much wider. Were they out here to get people and steal their money? I don’t really think so. But there were a lot of people who were doing their jobs well – and maybe without the greater good in mind. And no one was really paying attention to the market. They were just doing the same outdated material and weren’t even the slightest bit ashamed of it.

Some of these not-so-great schools started secretly going under financially – or they were doing great / and people wanted to buy them. It’s nothing we’d hear about on the surface, but it’s something other types of VC funding or acquisitions people might get wind of. Some of those original schools got bought by big corporations. Sometimes, they bought them for name recognition. Sometimes, they bought them for their student debt. Oh – and I forgot to mention that more payment options started appearing during this era. The school was selling its promises like “money-back guarantees,” and the banks were selling its financial products. There were all sorts of loans and payment plans and an interesting idea called an Income Share Agreement. I was pretty excited about this one, actually. My first few rounds of students had options to get ISAs, allowing them only to pay when they got a job over a threshold of income. I was looking for equitable ways to offer the education for people who didn’t have 10k just sitting in the bank. In theory – these options are great! You might pay more interest, but if you’re going from 40k to 80k, the cost is barely a consideration. People around here[codingbootcamp subreddit] like to compare course prices as if you’re paying for a commodity – but that’s not how it works. And they’ll be terrible programmers. But anyway – in theory, these new financial ways of getting into game were helping people. But I’d say it didn’t work out that way for most people. With college, you have your first year – and you’ll end up paying for it – even if you blow it / or the teachers are rotten. But you get many different classes and teachers – and (maybe most importantly) time to think about it, and you can course-correct as you go. With a boot camp, you might have to quit your job / or avoid getting one – and you might find out partway through it – that you hate it. That’s awkward. On one hand the school allocated the resources for you (in theory). So, the school did their job. But it doesn’t mean it’s going to work out – and it might be 30k + interest + the money you didn’t make for those 3 months and that’s a lot more money than a state college for a few semesters and possibly a lot of interest. So – should that school have let the student make that choice? Who’s responsible? Is the school predatory? Is the student naive? Are they both just not educated enough to know the difference? And where does the financial product come into play? I’ll tell you, – there’s a lotta weird stuff out there. One of the companies I was going to partner with to offer loans to our students didn’t trust the school, the students, or the market. They’d give the student a loan for 12k but they’d only give us (the school) 2k upfront. Then, only when the student was paying back the load would we get a percentage of that. Just think about that a little. I don’t know much about that world (maybe that’s normal?), but just break that down. They’d give 2k for the right to own 12k debt from the student. If the student doesn’t do their work (which I really have no control over) – then the school (in my case me) would be assuming basically all risk – but the financial product could be repurposed and sold. And there are other details there. If we had 300+ students through the program our share would go higher etc.. So, that’s just one edge-case that might show another angle. And the ISA agreements are similar. They’re just kinda imagining up a debt. If the student doesn’t get a job (because we did a terrible job / or the student didn’t apply themselves) then basically, the teachers don’t get paid. And this was a super tiny school, so the scale is different – but it’s just not as simple as it looks on the surface. A lot of these tech companies that we’re so excited to get hired at arean’t even profitable. There’s a lot of gambling going on. The schools are getting bought and sold and passed around / and the curriculums are getting licensed from one another. And none of the real original schools exist / except for maybe a few. So, how much of “The school” is really even a school / and how much of it is just a big system to collect and sell debts? The financial products could be the only thing that gives you the opportunity – but they could also be the things that saddle you with debt you’ll never be able to pay. And the job guarantees play into this. You might be paying 20k for a school giving you 4k of value. But I think you’re paying for all the buffer for everyone else. You’re paying for the room for error. A few people might actually follow through and do all the things on the insane list of stuff you have to do to qualify for the money-back guarantee. I know I wouldn’t be able to pull that off. Look at the fine print.

But then you gotta start looking at the bigger picture. How did the student find this school? Was it a facebook ad? What is hundreds or thousands of facebook ads? Was it a boot camp matching company like Career Karma? From what I can tell, a few guys went to coding bootcamps and saw that their was a market for it. They probably wanted to help people. But who knows. So – there’s was the prospective student surfing the web looking for some magic solution to their dead-end job? Did they follow the link? Did they give them their phone number? Did they signup for the challenge? Did they go through a matching process to find which funding options they have access to for which schools? Did they see thousands of 5-star reviews? Did they see invented awards of “Best coding boot camp” on every school? Did they get a personal call from the CEO? Did they get assigned a career coach? Did they not realize that this was really a high-pressure sales funnel. And so was/is it predatory? I think they’d say it wasn’t. Some of these people needed that push? Right? They have a dream to help people live their dreams. Are they trying to hurt people? I don’t think they think they are. But it all adds up. And I get offers to be featured in the “top boot camp list of 2024” or whatever all the time (from well-known magazines). You just need to pay them 10 or 20k. And this type of thing goes across all the industries. We don’t want to be preyed upon, but if you ever do get into a job as a developer, you’ll just make what the boss tells you to make – and it’ll probably be manipulating people in some way. Dark, but – it’s also the reason why we need to have thoughtful people taking these roles – and not just opportunists.

It wouldn’t be fair to leave the students out. And I know this will sting a little… but A lot of these students getting reeled in by the marketing just don’t have the work ethic to sit down and do the work. They’re all in during the initial pre-course work phase, but when it comes down to it, they like that phase because that work is easy and it makes them feel good about themselves. It’s designed that way. And I think that the designer wanted the students to feel good – (because they honestly believe that’s how to help them). But it’s not. Being able to sit and work out problems that don’t have answers – or even a clear problem – is basically the job. Some people just haven’t had practice at being uncomfortable and doing things that are hard. That’s usually why people with previous degrees have better luck. People with careers and notable time in school are just better at school. They have more practice being accountable. They have more people skills. That’s true. This is also true: A notable amount of students are just assholes who want to do much less than the bare minimum – and expect A+ student results. Just look at all the self-important whiney bullshit around this sub. There are legit people here who worked really really hard and have a serious right to be mad. If that’s you – let me help you make the best of it. But the rest of you know who you are – and you’re lazy – and you just want what you want and think you should have it. It’s not rocket science. If you want to be a developer and put in the work (and stop waiting and hoping that the boot camp fairy will deliver you a job and give you your money back) – then just do the work. “But Derek! That’s not fair. I did the work.” I don’t believe you. Show it to us.

Alright – so, I’ve spent way to long typing this. I have actual work to do today! and I’ve been thinking about this and writing it out for what I’m afraid to say might have been 3 hours! But here’s my conclusion: Are boot camps predatory? Can we call them that? Sure. But what would be the point. Is CocaCola predatory? Is the crappy dentist? Is the car company? Is the college system? Am I? And I’m not sticking up for bad coding boot camps. I think that the majority of boot camp offerings are embarrassing. I’ve spent a lot of my time trying to help people understand the options and vet schools. I think a lot of people got a raw deal. And it’s just terrible. But I guess my question is – does it help to just put those words together? Will anyone get their money back? Will everyone get retribution? Highly doubtful. I think we just have to learn from it now. And you also have to consider how many people really worked their hearts out as founders and teachers and TAs and students. By trying to just say that “all coding boot camps every are and were always predatory” – you are stamping out all the good things. There are at least a handful of really great schools. And there are other schools that might not exactly be classic boot camps / or smaller bootcamps that are growing in countries and states we haven’t heard of here yet. We do want quality education. We do want caring teachers. We want good things. So, to make sure we can have them – we have to be critical. Not arbitrarily skeptical – but to really be able to think about what makes something good? What about this technique or system really helps people? And which things just don’t work – and could be improved. By discussing the good and the bad and highlighting the people who are working toward something better – we might get it. But if we just say “the idea of learning enough programming to get a job is impossible and all schools are bad” – then I think we all lose (except the student debt sales machines) (you know – the boot camps). Having a ton of WGU grads is going to be the same. What people are really missing isn’t their ability to code. It’s their ability to reason / and their ability to deeply care about their work. No one cares about your novice Node API. ChatGPT can write the same one in 10 seconds now. A handful of watchdog groups have reached out to me over the years based on my videos about this – and my posts here. There are always people trying to find a crack to get some action against these schools. But I wouldn’t wait for it. Get focused on your goal. Fight for yourself now.

Predatory behavior refers to actions and conduct characterized by the exploitation, manipulation, or harm of others for personal gain, satisfaction, or gratification

Are people manipulating and exploiting people for personal gain?

Yes.

Everywhere.

All the time.

I think that the overall system that talks you into ‘the dream’ (but takes no responsibility for the outcome), signs you up for a ‘pay-later’ mindset (and makes it seem like it’s free – when it’s not), sells your future debt before delivering any value, gives you a pretty crappy attempt at education (that more likely stunts you), steals your time and breaks down your confidence, – and then roll in all the people around here hating on you for your choice — sucks. We can generalize a sub-group of coding boot camps during a certain time period – in combination with certain marketing techniques and specific financial products (and outright lies in the numbers) – and we can say that those boot camps and the people that (collectively or independently) made the decisions that created that scenario: predatory. And for the last 3 years – some people have roped me into that group and treated me pretty terribly. But the facts are the facts. And if people don’t want to look a little deeper – and do some thinking – then there’s nothing we can do to help them. Calling it predatory won’t matter (even if they are). And the boot camps are just one piece of the trap. If you want something better – then you’re going to have to make it. That’s what I’ll be doing.